- Steve hasn’t had much sleep, but with some extra caffeine, the show goes on!
- “It’s great that I have a business acumen, and it’s great that I love sales, but I have to have a plan.”
- “People think it’s so easy to go and sell your art, or your photography, without really sitting down and saying ‘what does that mean, and what is the plan to doing that, and how do you execute it?’ There’s a lot of steps in between the actual creation and the selling that go into play.”
- “The difference between the businesses that make it and the businesses that don’t, it isn’t the product or service that you sell, it isn’t the marketplace, and it isn’t the conditions, it is the resilience of the business owner to keep getting back up.”
- “Entrepreneurship is not for everyone. It does take a certain kind of mindset, and although it can be very rewarding, there are lots of sacrifices, and it isn’t for everyone.”
- “We need to look out for each other. We need to support each other. We need to help those who have difficulty helping themselves.”
- “Whatever you do as an entrepreneur, just make sure that you stay strong, you keep going, and know what your goal is. It’s easier to stay connected if you know what you’re reaching for.”
- “You do not take a photograph, you make it.” – Ansel Adams.
Meet Karlana Pedersen
Our guest is Karlana Pedersen, Owner of Karlana Pedersen Art & Photography.
Karlana is a business owner, entrepreneur, and visual artist, specialising in mixed-media art, digital illustration, and portrait photography. In 2015, she founded Karla Pedersen Visual Art & Photography, which has since become an exclusively online custom art service provider, divided into two distinct brands – Karlana.com, her digital art gallery, and Art Maiden ®, her new art licensing brand.
She is a certified Nikon Professional, with the focus on both lifestyle, and fashion photography. She is also the co-host of the weekly How Do Artists Podcast, and Artwork Wednesday on Facebook Live.
Smart Man, Smarter Woman References
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Steve Loates (00:00):
Welcome everyone to another episode of our podcast, Smart Man, Smarter Woman, a podcast for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs. And thank you very much for joining us today. I’m Steve Loates.
Juliet Aurora (00:15):
And I’m Juliet Aurora.
Steve Loates (00:17):
And we are your co-hosts. And before we introduce our special guests today, maybe we can hear a few words from my wonderful co-host, that smarter woman herself, Juliet. How are you doing today?
Juliet Aurora (00:31):
I am excellent, thank you. I should probably ask that question to you, Steve, as for those of you in our audience who may not know, Steve very much needs his eight hours of sleep. Otherwise, we tend to have not a very productive, functional, responsive day the next day. And Steve only had what? Like two and a half hours of sleep, three hours of sleep yesterday. Maybe the question should come back to you.
Steve Loates (00:57):
Yeah, I think it was at least three hours if I do recall. So I must say that I am drinking a little more coffee today than usual. So hopefully that doesn’t have a detrimental effect on the quality of this particular episode. It will certainly not be our guest’s fault. It will absolutely be my fault, but I will try my best. You’ve got to be a professional. The show must go on regardless. So that’s what we’re doing and that’s how I feel. I feel spectacular Juliet.
Juliet Aurora (01:32):
And I think that caffeine is kicking in for you, Steve.
Steve Loates (01:34):
It is. Okay. All right. Well, I knew it might. Okay. So we will bring in our special guests because you guys don’t want to hear us. You want to hear the person you tuned in for. And so I would like to welcome all the way from a suburb of the Windy City itself, Chicago, Illinois, Karlana Peterson. I got it, and welcome to our show and thank you very much for joining us.
Karlana Peterson (02:09):
Well, thank you for having me. It’s great to be here.
Steve Loates (02:12):
Why don’t we start off a little bit, if you could perhaps tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, how you help people, how you got to where you are, and then we can go from there.
Karlana Peterson (02:25):
Well, I am a visual artist, so I’m a mixed media visual artist and portrait photographer. I do digital illustrations as well. And I started … Well went to school, formerly trained for art. And then I got involved in so many different variations of art and performing arts. I went to the Art Institute in Chicago and also did an internship with Colombia and was in music. And over the years have just sort of really kept involved with my art and my craft, even when I was at a period of time working in a corporate atmosphere. During my time working in corporate, I did graphic illustrations and I really started getting into more of the graphics aspect of art and doing that on a corporate commercial level. That sort of led me into other areas. When I had my children, I stayed at home and decided to be a stay at home mom for a while. And during this process, my husband, who was a professional film photographer for so many years, had just been doing it for hobby. And he is a fantastic photographer.
Karlana Peterson (03:49):
He said, why don’t you do photography if you’re going to be home? You’re already visual. And I really did like it. So he taught me photography. And so that just sort of snowballed into a career and it was something I could do at home with my kids. And I did that for a long time. I worked as a fashion inspired photographer in Chicago, and then we moved to Minneapolis and then I worked in Minneapolis as a photographer.
Karlana Peterson (04:20):
But my photography always sort of leaned towards something a little bit more unusual in terms of how I use my photography. I was always creating graphics from it or other pieces of artwork. So that sort of led me into a career that I have now, which is really sort of where my roots were and that was art illustration and creating abstract art. And because I love so many different mediums, really getting involved in mixed media. So that’s where I am now. I still am a portrait photographer, but now I focus more on fine art portrait photography, and combining my skillset in art and digital illustration with my photography. So that’s been something very unique to me and I really enjoy doing it.
Juliet Aurora (05:11):
Excellent. And so I’m going to sort of preface and maybe warn Steve to remember the purpose of our podcast is to talk about and help entrepreneurs. Because Steve is an amateur photographer.
Karlana Peterson (05:29):
Juliet Aurora (05:30):
And just based on your introduction, I could just see this podcast completely going off the rails and that you guys are talking Photoshop at Nikon lenses and [crosstalk 00:05:40].
Karlana Peterson (05:40):
I’m a Nikon pro.
Juliet Aurora (05:44):
So steering the conversation, back to our audience as well, Steve.
Karlana Peterson (05:51):
Keeping it on track. I see. All right, so let’s stay on track then. I like to dabble too. So I’ll be guilty of that as well.
Steve Loates (06:04):
I would like to ask one question. Could you, for those in the audience who perhaps don’t know what it is, what is mixed media?
Karlana Peterson (06:15):
Well, for a long time, I was what was considered a multimedia. Multimedia is different than mixed media even. Mixed media is when you take a, either acrylic based artistry or oil based artistry, and you blend it with other types of media, such as fabrics or woods or other types of craftsmanship components, that creates a mixed media art archetype. A multimedia, which I’m also considered a multimedia artist because of I have production experience. So I often, when I was in commercial graphic illustrations had that ability to create more production type artwork: logos, videos, that kind of thing. So I straddle that fence a little bit.
Karlana Peterson (07:12):
But I would really say that I’m way more mixed media, that moving really towards working with acrylics, working with other types of fabrics or other types of components. My stuff is on wood. I work with vendors and production houses that can complete pieces that I want and that I see in my vision. I have my website, which primarily does reproductions of my digital artwork. And then I have an entire subset of original art that I do in addition to that. And that’s where the mixed media aspect comes into play.
Steve Loates (07:57):
Okay thank you.
Juliet Aurora (07:58):
So let’s take this back to your entrepreneurial journey. Can you tell us having come from the corporate world and now working for yourself, why did you decide after your kids obviously, you said that you started this because you wanted to be a stay at home mom for a while. I don’t know if your kids are older now that …
Karlana Peterson (08:20):
Juliet Aurora (08:20):
Okay. So why, when your kids were older, did you not go back into the corporate world and decide to stay as an entrepreneur? What was the draw for you to do that?
Karlana Peterson (08:31):
That’s a good question because I ask myself that every day. What the heck are you doing? There’s the cliche, I like the freedom and I like all that stuff and that was a part of it and I still work. I still do commercial projects. So I wasn’t completely devoid of being involved in commercial, especially as a photographer. I did commercial work for companies that needed a photographer and they hired me because I had more of a artistic style than say, just a regular commercial photographer. And so you get hired based on those things.
Karlana Peterson (09:16):
In terms of wanting to work for someone else. What I realized was if I look back over the course of my entire lifetime, I am a fantastic salesperson. I enjoy the business aspect of art, which is unusual I think for a lot of artists. I think even from my own podcast and being able to talk to so many different people, that’s a real thing that we struggle with. So being a creative and having that love for business. So I figured, well, why would I give that away to someone else when I can clearly use that to do what I want to do and to build something for me as opposed to working and using those talents for building something for someone else? So I think that was really the reason.
Juliet Aurora (10:14):
Excellent. Thank you.
Steve Loates (10:17):
In your journey as an entrepreneur, has there been anything that has surprised you? That you perhaps, as you started working for yourself that something maybe you weren’t expecting, good or bad along the way?
Karlana Peterson (10:36):
Yeah. That’s a good question too. Yes. And I think it was … Well, I’ll tell you really what surprised me. My first business, when I was a photographer and I was working in Chicago. I did really well in Chicago because I knew everybody here. I went to school here. I was in the arts and entertainment industry while I was in school. I was in production while I was in school. I made so many contacts and knew so many people that when I ventured off to my own company, which was a more of a multimedia company, art, photography, and more production, I had work all the time. I look back at it now and I’m like I really didn’t do anything to garner that attention or that business. It just sort of, because I knew everyone, was all referral. And then that spun into that direction. And that’s fun.
Karlana Peterson (11:46):
So when I moved to Minnesota out of Chicago, I was very naive, very naive as to what that meant and was I prepared to do that? My studio, I had a really nice setup that my husband actually built for me in our home, where it was completely separated from the rest of our house. I had a studio, and an office, and people and clients could come to that studio. And I had a different studio where my assistant worked and we rented that studio for larger commercial projects. And so I had the system in place here. So when we sold our house, there went the studio. And when I moved away there went the assistant, and lo and behold there went all my clients. So I really went to Minnesota thinking, oh, I’ve got this company. It’ll be fine. It’ll be okay.
Karlana Peterson (12:46):
And then I got there and zip, zilch, nothing. And that company crashed and burned. And what I learned from that was OMG, this is not a walk in the park. I have to decide how to create a plan. It’s great that I have a business acumen and it’s great that I love sales, but I have to have a plan. So I spent the next two years after that, taking classes, going back and learning what I didn’t know about small business, connecting with the SBA and learning about marketing, and how I was going to create a new company and where that was going to go. And that’s what I did. So in 2015, when I created my new company, I had a longterm plan because I knew we were eventually going to come back to Chicago. So I’m like, well, if that happens again, what’s going to happen?
Karlana Peterson (13:43):
So I would say in answer to your question, it was how people think it’s so easy and I’m guilty of this too. It’s so easy to just go and sell your art or go and sell your photography without really sitting down and saying, well, what does that mean? And what is the actual plan to doing that? And then how do you execute it? There’s a lot of steps in between the creation and the actual selling that go into play. So that was a wake up call for, okay, this is a real business if I want it to be.
Juliet Aurora (14:21):
Right. And that story is absolutely true, no matter what product or service that you’re selling.
Karlana Peterson (14:27):
Juliet Aurora (14:28):
That there’s a huge gap that a lot of people don’t think about, especially when they’re entering into a new business about, okay, I have this product or service, of course, everybody’s going to want to buy it from me. But then of course they don’t. So what does that look like? So very relatable story and I appreciate you sharing that with us.
Steve Loates (14:45):
No, that was great. And what I love about it is we hear that from so many of our guests. That I was successful for whatever reason, then I wasn’t successful. And then I went and learned what I needed to learn to be successful longterm and we hear that over and over. And I really do think that is one of the things that separates entrepreneurs, it is that tenacity. It is that never give up. It is that knowing what I don’t know so I better go and figure that out otherwise this isn’t going to work. And so I think that there’s just tremendous value there. And yeah, thank you for sharing that. That was great.
Juliet Aurora (15:41):
And I think also, I mean, Steve, if you think back to a conversation that you and I had, wasn’t even that long ago, a couple of days ago, where we were actually talking about something very similar, that the difference between the businesses that make it and the businesses that don’t, it isn’t the product or service that you sell and it isn’t the marketplace and it isn’t the conditions. And whether you’re in a pandemic and you’re locked down. It is the resilience of the business owner to keep getting back up and say, okay, that didn’t work. Let me try something else. And you hear that over and over and over again, but you don’t really listen to it and hear it until you can see another business owner who isn’t doing well, and you know why they’re not doing well is because they’ve given up. Because they’re making excuses and they’re not getting up and they’re not standing up again. And that is a great reminder.
Steve Loates (16:41):
Also in fairness, right, to those that do give up, entrepreneurship is not for everybody. It really isn’t. It does take a certain kind of mindset. And although it can be very rewarding, there’s lots of sacrifices and it isn’t for everybody. And I’m not sure that they quit and failed as much as they discovered this isn’t for me. I will follow a different path. And so I mean, goodness knows there’s been lots of times I’ve thought I’ve been on the wrong path. But I’m just too stubborn. And so that’s why I’m still here. So that was great. Now, you also have your own podcast. How did that come about? Like why did you want to do a podcast? And tell us a little bit about it.
Karlana Peterson (17:43):
Well, the podcast is called How Do Artist, and it is a look at how artists live, work, play, how they use their craft to heal, how they use their craft to cope, or how they are using it in ways that maybe we haven’t thought about. And I am a co-host with Ryan Caldwell, who is a musician and producer, and we originally had another co-host that was a writer. And it was just one of those things where we met. I met her first and she was in a group at my office. I had an office in Geneva, Illinois, and this was right before the pandemic hit. I had met her and we connected. And then this idea, somebody else said, you guys have a really good rapport. You should do a podcast. And we were like, oh my gosh, I would love to, we would love to do a podcast. So we started developing this podcast. It was maybe about three weeks.
Karlana Peterson (18:49):
And then we came in contact with Ryan who was a music producer. And I met with him first and thought he was great. We got along. And I went back to her and I said, well, what do you think? He’s a music producer. He can probably help with the podcast and contribute a lot to this since this is sort of up his alley. And she loved the idea. Over the development of the podcast. And it was eight months, Ryan and I have been together for eight months developing this before we actually started putting this out. And it didn’t work out for her unfortunately. She had a different vision than where we kind of agreed this was going to go. And so we both knew that’s okay. It’s sort of like entrepreneurship. It’s not for everyone. And we were doing lives. That certainly is not for everyone. So Ryan and I continued and we get along great. We have really fun rapport. He is the straight guy to my smarty pants.
Karlana Peterson (20:00):
Although I’m only a smart Alec with him. I’m never a smart Alec with my guests. So it’s fun, it has been a lot of fun and we’ve met so many wonderful people. So it’s been a blessing. And then when COVID hit, we really had to figure out how we were going to do this because originally we were going to do this live in person. So we had to pivot. And so we did, and now we do this over Zoom, like you are doing, and it’s worked out really well so I couldn’t be happier with it. And we’re going into our second season. So we’re babies.
Steve Loates (20:37):
Absolutely. That’s awesome. Now, do you hope to build the podcast into another business, like to try and monetize it somehow? Or is it just no, we love doing it and it’s our way of giving back to that community? Or do you know yet?
Karlana Peterson (20:57):
We’d love to see it monetize.
Steve Loates (21:01):
Karlana Peterson (21:02):
We really do enjoy the process of talking with people and learning from people that we would never have normally come in contact with. So that’s been a really significant plus for us. And in terms of monetizing the podcast, yeah. I mean, that would be great. That takes a lot of work and effort in terms of where that goes and you have to kind of build a catalog. So we’re still at the catalog building phase, I would say.
Steve Loates (21:32):
Right. That’s great. That’s great. I mean, I must say that is one of the things we enjoy the most with our podcast is getting to meet people like yourself, who we never otherwise would ever meet and would ever get to talk like that and get to know each other a little bit. And we have spoken to some really amazing people who I have to admit when we first invited them as a guest and they were scheduled to come on. And I said to Juliet, I don’t know what to expect here. I don’t know where this is … And it turns out great because after all we’re all people. I mean so it truly is the thing I think I probably enjoy the most and I just drag Juliet kicking and screaming into the podcast arena.
Juliet Aurora (22:27):
It goes back to something that Karlana said with when you started out with your other partner and the vision wasn’t the same as to what the direction is that you wanted to go. And how important that is, that everyone on your team is working towards the same vision. So Steve, yes, this absolutely is your baby and your vision. But if I didn’t believe in it, then there’s no way that it would work at all.
Steve Loates (22:57):
I agree. I agree. We’re in agreement again. It’s awesome. I love how this works. I actually have a recording of it. That’s even more awesome.
Karlana Peterson (23:09):
Yeah. You have proof.
Steve Loates (23:11):
Absolutely. I do. And proof forever. It’s going to be out on the airwaves. Can’t argue with it.
Juliet Aurora (23:18):
You make it sound like I never agree with you Steve.
Steve Loates (23:20):
No, no, no. Not at all. I would never say that. Tell us a little bit, you mentioned before we started, a little bit about a new venture you’re doing on Facebook Live every Wednesday. Artwork Wednesday. Tell us a little bit about that.
Karlana Peterson (23:36):
It really came out of a idea that I wanted to connect with people who are following our Facebook group and I have my business Facebook group. And of course we have our podcasts group and I wanted to sort of reach out to everyone and say, hey, listen, let’s kind of just get together and see where this goes. And I said, what do I like doing the most? What do I find enjoyable or find myself doing a lot of? And that’s doodling. I doodle on everything. When I’m thinking or processing, I’m just drawing and doing that kind of thing. And I’m like, well, maybe if we take that one step further and I actually showed people sort of like the behind the scenes of what I do and how I create my art, maybe that would be something that people might be interested in.
Karlana Peterson (24:33):
People ask me all the time about how I create certain digital pieces, because I’m very, very comfortable creating art on a whack on board or my iPad Pro. And I utilize a lot of different programs to get what I’m looking to do, what I’m looking to achieve in that artwork, because I can see the end result. And it’s just a matter of how do I create that process to get to the end result? So Artwork Wednesday for me, is sort of like a little bit behind the scenes look at how I do that process. What tablets am I using? What digital pens am I using and why? And if I see the artwork as being this, this, and this, how do I get to those steps? So it’s less about teaching someone the technique of art because there’s professionals that do that. I am not trying to take away that job from anyone who’s out there actually teaching art and teaching form.
Karlana Peterson (25:42):
That’s not what I’m really about. I’m just sort of saying, hey, listen, if you want to sketch with me next Wednesday, I’m going to show you how to sketch a little chubby sparrow. I doodled this little chubby sparrow and my husband still has my little doodle that I did on an index card, on his mirror, in the bathroom. And I thought, oh my gosh, that’s so sweet. That was just a little cute little doodle of a bird. So I said, I’m going to do this bird and see if anyone wants to see me do this bird. And let’s all do it together. So that’s what we do. We do that little bird or we do something else. So that’s what Artwork Wednesday is. It’s only 20 minutes, a full 20 minute break out of your day during lunchtime or before or after, depending on what time zone you’re in and it’s on Facebook. So it’s fun.
Steve Loates (26:27):
Awesome. That sounds like something that anybody who’s interested in art would really enjoy. That’s terrific. That brings us to the part of the show that we call the Smart Man Smarter Woman version of James Lipton’s, Actor’s Studio Q&A, where we have six questions. We ask every guest the same six questions. So you’re going to be on the hot seat for a couple of minutes. Are you ready?
Karlana Peterson (26:59):
Steve Loates (27:00):
Perfect. Okay. Our first question, what one word best defines an entrepreneur?
Karlana Peterson (27:09):
Steve Loates (27:11):
Okay. What profession, other than your own, would you like to attempt?
Karlana Peterson (27:21):
Can it be something I … Would like to attempt? Oh, I don’t know that because I feel like I’ve done almost everything.
Steve Loates (27:28):
Okay. We haven’t had that answer, but that’s okay.
Karlana Peterson (27:33):
No, I think if I had to pick one profession that I’d like to attempt. Oh my gosh. I don’t know. I don’t look at things that way.
Steve Loates (27:43):
That’s okay. You can get this answer right or wrong. It’s okay.
Karlana Peterson (27:47):
Because I’m totally happy doing what I’m doing. So I don’t look [crosstalk 00:27:52].
Steve Loates (27:51):
Maybe this next question will be easier. What profession would you like never to attempt?
Karlana Peterson (28:00):
I have so much respect for teachers and people who homeschool their kids. And this pandemic has been a testament to how difficult that is. We don’t give teachers enough … They’ve got a really hard job and they do what they do each and every day. And it is hard. So I would say, yeah, being a teacher, I totally support it, but it’s not … I know that’s a job I couldn’t do to that degree every single day for someone else’s kids. That’s a hard job to do. And so thank you for those who are out there doing that.
Steve Loates (28:46):
Okay. What sound or noise do you love?
Karlana Peterson (28:52):
Sound or noise do I love? I loved hearing my kids when they were young, when they would be like snuggled up next to me as babies. And they’d like, do that little … That little baby. Oh my gosh. I love that. Snuggling with my kids when they were little. Now they’re teenagers and they run from me.
Steve Loates (29:15):
I completely understand. What book would you recommend every entrepreneur should read?
Karlana Peterson (29:27):
Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. I listen to audio podcasts.
Steve Loates (29:37):
Okay, well recommend a podcast.
Karlana Peterson (29:40):
Oh my goodness, there’s a business podcast. I am completely blanking out on its name.
Steve Loates (29:47):
You know you’re going to think of it as soon as this episode is over.
Karlana Peterson (29:50):
I am and I listened … Oh, I will tell you, there is a really good podcast for artists and it’s Art Storefronts. If you’re an artist and they talk about the business of art and how to actually sell your art and it’s Art Storefronts. They have a podcast called Art Storefronts Podcast. And that’s one of the podcasts I listen to. And I got involved with them as a business, as a result of listening to their podcast, because they were so phenomenal. They don’t just give you stuff that is pretty esoteric, and really only makes sense if you’re working with them, but they give you actual strategic value to their podcast, which was amazing. So yes, I would recommend that for artists and businesses.
Steve Loates (30:40):
Awesome. And last question, when your own entrepreneurial journey is completed, what do you hope your legacy is?
Karlana Peterson (30:50):
I hope it’s a legacy of compassion and understanding, and that I’ve done more for others than I’ve done for myself. I give a lot back to charity organizations and I don’t talk about that in my business. It’s just something that I feel that I need to do. And it’s something that I hope that I’ve instilled in my children and our family that we need to look out for each other. We need to support each other. We need to help those who have difficulty helping themselves. I am really interested in growing more of a community based effort regarding arts and education and how art can actually help inner city children and children in school with academics.
Karlana Peterson (31:41):
There’s studies that show that the arts work hand in hand with mathematics and even with science comprehension. And so I’m really involved in promoting that and also promoting things that are basic necessities for people. Like there’s an organization that I donate to, that I am trying to get the word on. It’s called charitywater.org. And they’re an organization that gives 100% of their donations to the actual charity mission, not administration. They have a separate funnel for that, but 100% of your dollars goes to getting water to countries that are suffering from not having clean water all over the world. So I it’s really important. So that’s what I really hope people, if they say my name 40 years after I’m dead, there’ll be that energy.
Steve Loates (32:43):
Yeah, no, that’s a great, great legacy. And as we’re winding down here for any of our listeners that would like to connect with you, what is the easiest way for them to connect with you?
Karlana Peterson (32:55):
The easiest way is you can email me at firstname.lastname@example.org or visit my website at karlana.com, and it’s karlana.com. And all my information is there for everyone to see.
Steve Loates (33:10):
Perfect. Perfect. And again, before we conclude, do you have any final words you would like to share with our audience of entrepreneurs?
Karlana Peterson (33:20):
I just wanted to say thank you for having me on the show. It was so wonderful talking with you both, and whatever you do as an entrepreneur, just make sure that you stay strong and you keep going and know what your goal is. I think it’s easier to stay connected if you know what you’re reaching for and have that goal in mind for how you want to do it and reach out to people. It’s important to reach out to those that are doing it, ask questions and always learn.
Steve Loates (33:58):
That’s great advice. And what about you Juliet?
Juliet Aurora (34:01):
I guess more than anything, thank you very much Karlana for joining us. I think it was a great conversation, loved the insights that you shared with our audience. And I’m just so impressed that that whole thing didn’t become about Nikon lenses. So [inaudible 00:34:15] on all of that.
Karlana Peterson (34:16):
We can talk about Nikon if you want.
Steve Loates (34:22):
That would be a whole other podcast.
Karlana Peterson (34:24):
Thank you both.
Steve Loates (34:25):
You’re welcome. We’ll close out with our words of wisdom. And so our quote for this episode I hope is appropriate. “You do not take a photograph, you make it,” by Ansel Adams.
Karlana Peterson (34:41):
Steve Loates (34:42):
And I thought that might be appropriate with today’s guest. So thank you very much Karlana for joining us. Thank you to my awesome co-host, Juliet, but most importantly, again, thank you very much to you, our audience for tuning in giving us a listen. We hope you found some value. Please subscribe if you did, you can find us in all the normal places, or you can go to the website, smartmensmarterwoman.com. Thank you very much. Until next time, take good care of yourself and those that you love. Bye for now.